Curse

Winterclaw · Jul 30, 2009, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Instead of wasting your elite to tank, go godmode and bring a prot monk. That'll work a lot better. A good prot monk has more than enough defensive skills if you know what you are doing. Case in point, SoA. It can absorb more damage than DP ever will and when it's down, your monk can cast guardian on you meaning up to half the attacks made against you will miss.

If that isn't enough, there are always imbagons.

MisterB · Jul 30, 2009, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

You should write about Triple Chop > Whirlwind Attack > Cyclone Axe

Whirlwind Attack > Triple Chop > Cyclone Axe

Whirlwind will do more damage in the long run, if you have at least rank 8 or more. It also won't make you explode if you have Spiteful Spirit and Empathy on you, as it only triggers those once. Triple Chop ends up being Power Attack on a 10 second recharge more often than not. DSlash and Whirlwind can pump out far more AoE than Triple Chop and Whirlwind. The recharge on Triple Chop kills the skill. Even Echo and Whirlwind beats Triple Chop in damage output.

gerlin · Jul 30, 2009, 09:36 PM // 21:36

I have to agree on all the points made here. These 5 aren't the only elites a warrior can use but if you are trying a hard mission or want things to go smoothly these are the 4 i'd recommend.

Cleave is not that great of a skill. You can spam it, with For Great Justice this skill can really output some damage and in combo with Asuran Scan really rake up. But it's kinda falls in the shadow of the other 4 great ones. I think it also pretty much ties with Quivering Blade as in damage and nobody seems to really like it because of the low damage against the other sword elites.

I think Warrior's Endurance for PvE shoud stand right next to Earth Shaker. The utility of ES and the damage of WE make these skills close combatants. I prefer WE because this allows a more "closest target" + space type of gameplay where ES kinda makes you want to position yourself fruitfully.

About Triple Chop and Defy Pain; Both are decent elites but kinda fall out the boat with the ones listed above. Triple Chop is basicly a AoE Executioner's Strike that costs energy, because of the fairly long recharge i wouldn't take it over Cyclone Axe.
Defy Pain is a great skill to keep alive and to "tank". I don't like using the word tank because it doesn't really work in GW unless through bodyblock. That s also the reason i don't think it should be in the "great 5".

I would like to see it more as the Elite 4(hint the old school pokemon pun) of warrior elites. And they should all be on equal grounds to prevent "newbies" for saying :"ZOMG NOOB! ONLY EEERRRRRFFFFSHHAAAAKUUUR AND DRAGON SLASH ARE GOOD ELITES GTFO! I KNW CUZ THE PROEZ AT GWGURU SAID SO!! OMGWTFBBQ"

Lishy · Jul 30, 2009, 09:36 PM // 21:36

I actually meant the order of skills.
You use triple chop to charge it, then use cyclone axe to recharge it after that, then you can use it again.

laksa and curry · Jul 31, 2009, 01:12 AM // 01:12

IMO its not godmode if 5/8 team members choose to stay out of shout range^^. Nice guide btw. Someone should do a comprehensive one covering all the warrior elites. ^^

_Nihilist_ · Jul 31, 2009, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Triple Chop doesn't make the list because Whirlwind Attack and Cyclone Axe are better, and they aren't Elites.

Defy Pain doesn't make the list because, as so many people have stated, you shouldn't be devoting space on your skillbar to buff your HP/Defense, that's what your backline/support is for - they keep you up and running while you kill stuff.

Cleave has had a hard time standing up against the other 4 ever since Warrior's Endurance was changed from a Stance to a Skill in PvE, meaning that you can use both WE and an IAS Stance of your choice to churn out the pain. I still agree with Winterclaw's placement of it on the list - it's Core, it's spammable, it's damage, it's a good basic Elite for newer Warriors to use in getting used to their role as the team ass-kicker, and EVERY Warrior has access to this skill.

draxynnic · Jul 31, 2009, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Enlighten me. AoE axe builds looks good on paper, especially when paired with SY.

They look good in action, too. However... having tried both builds, I find Warrior's Endurance helps more with an AOE axe build than Triple Chop. Whirlwind and Cyclone work well enough together for the AoE part, Endurance means you don't need to worry about energy, and you can throw in Power Attack and its ilk for when you want to bust open a single target.

Idly, my first thought regarding Winterclaw's comment on 4 of the skills having something in common wasn't damage, but synergy - all but Cleave let you set up scary synergies.

Personally, why I understand what Winterclaw was aiming for, I'd probably be inclined to make a third tier of decent-but-not-top-tier elites, including Cleave, Quivering, and similar elites that are decent to have, but don't have the synergy of the big four. This would also help people decide what elite to use in the meantime before they get to a particular skill (a Factions-only character won't get any of those until they get to the Convocation, but could pick up Quivering Blade and/or Triple Chop as soon as they hit the mainland).

Winterclaw · Jul 31, 2009, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by drazynic

Idly, my first thought regarding Winterclaw's comment on 4 of the skills having something in common wasn't damage, but synergy - all but Cleave let you set up scary synergies.

This is a good point. The best elites need to synergize with your build and help out your team.

Quote:

Personally, why I understand what Winterclaw was aiming for, I'd probably be inclined to make a third tier of decent-but-not-top-tier elites, including Cleave, Quivering, and similar elites that are decent to have, but don't have the synergy of the big four. This would also help people decide what elite to use in the meantime before they get to a particular skill (a Factions-only character won't get any of those until they get to the Convocation, but could pick up Quivering Blade and/or Triple Chop as soon as they hit the mainland).

I haven't decided on dropping cleave yet; Tyreal has got it. Cleave is an elite everyone can get and it does the thing new warriors need it to do: spam a lot of damage real quick.

However I have been thinking of adding a third group with quivering blade, whirling axe, and maybe evi. Cleave would end up there if I drop it from the main group... something to think about.

**Marty Silverblade** · Jul 31, 2009, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

However I have been thinking of adding a third group with quivering blade, whirling axe, and maybe evi. Cleave would end up there if I drop it from the main group... something to think about.

If you want to keep Cleave in there somewhere do this. As I mentioned previously, Cleave is simply unremarkable. It is a decent elite, it just isn't at the level the others are at. Adding another category could be worthwhile.

Chthon · Aug 01, 2009, 02:26 AM // 02:26

This is a good list, and probably should be required reading for all newbies. Two things though:

1. You forgot to mention the best reason for bringing 100Blades -- a necro friend with Mark of Pain.

2. I'm not so sure about cleave...

Lishy · Aug 01, 2009, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

They look good in action, too. However... having tried both builds, I find Warrior's Endurance helps more with an AOE axe build than Triple Chop. Whirlwind and Cyclone work well enough together for the AoE part, Endurance means you don't need to worry about energy, and you can throw in Power Attack and its ilk for when you want to bust open a single target.

By any chance, did you try using a zealous weapon? If not, urdoingitwrong

draxynnic · Aug 01, 2009, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade

If you want to keep Cleave in there somewhere do this. As I mentioned previously, Cleave is simply unremarkable. It is a decent elite, it just isn't at the level the others are at. Adding another category could be worthwhile.

Aye. New players can be pretty impressionable, so we may not want to encourage them to think that Cleave is somehow a super-elite that is head and shoulders above everything else and a match for the Big Four.

If you want to keep the numbers small, you could make the third category one of 'good elites to use in the meantime' - an elite warrior tome may still be a significant outlay for a truly new player, after all, so the suggestion of Quivering Blade and Triple Chop for Factions warriors and Cleave for Nightfall warriors until they get to one of the Big Four may be useful. None of these really have synergies, but they all serve as decent bread-and-butter elites until you can get to something better. Prophecies warriors get Warrior's Endurance as their first elite, so they don't really need alternatives.

(Incidentally, as another early-availability skill, this thread has inspired me to give the new Enraged Smash a try - it might actually have potential in the third tier. It's not a match for Earthshaker or the DS/BH combination, but getting that adrenaline boost every five seconds has its uses when combined with hammer adrenal skills, especially those with the 'lose all adrenaline' (who cares, it'll be back soon enough...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

By any chance, did you try using a zealous weapon? If not, urdoingitwrong

Both with and without. Bottom line is, though, when you can already cycle Whirlwind and Cyclone easily enough, one bigger hit every ten seconds just doesn't seem to make up for the extra versatility that near-unlimited energy from WE grants.

This could certainly change with a build that uses more than the weapon attribute and Strength, but those aren't so common nowadays.

thetwistedboy · Aug 23, 2009, 03:04 AM // 03:04

has anybody noticed how nearly every warrior elite has a big drawback to it that makes it seem useless? shove in tactics for example is great for a bit start dmg and knockdown at the beggining of a fight. the problem is that you can use adrenal skill cuz it takes all adrenal away. so that forces you to use energy attacks to keep up dmg. warriors have low energy though and that makes this skill useless. so there are only like, 8 warrior elites i would consider using. the rest just have too big drawbacks

Picuso · Aug 23, 2009, 10:09 AM // 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetwistedboy

has anybody noticed how nearly every warrior elite has a big drawback to it that makes it seem useless? shove in tactics for example is great for a bit start dmg and knockdown at the beggining of a fight. the problem is that you can use adrenal skill cuz it takes all adrenal away.

That's because Shove isn't a Warrior Elite Skill. Shove 'Sin FTW.

And tactics still sux Q_Q

Bobby2 · Aug 23, 2009, 11:04 AM // 11:04

...Charge.

/12

qvtkc · Aug 24, 2009, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Everybody talks about Earth Shaker, but I haven't ever seen it put to really good use outside PvP. As for Dragon Slash, people seem to say it's there to enable you to spam SY, which is all nice, except that it's better to have that on a paragon, and while 100 extra armor is nice, honestly, how much do you die in PvE even without that +100 armor? No, didn't think so.

Both these skills seem to be for "holding aggro".

I sigh. Really. I sigh.

Holding aggro is what minion masters are for.

Warriors shouldn't focus on holding aggro. It's not a bad thing if they do it, but it shouldn't be their main purpose, and they certainly shouldn't waste their elite on that. Seriously. There are so many ways to make sure that holding aggro isn't even needed - water eles, earth eles, minion masters, mesmers, hell in some cases even a ranger potentially makes for better defense, where "better" means that the team survives and can proceed forward as fast as possible.

Warriors should kill stuff. Dragon Slash is pretty good for that, though. Pump out +40ish damage every hit, all nice. WE is good for the same reason. Earth Shaker less so - sure, you might have a few mobs around you, but if your team is any good, they shouldn't be able to walk away from you whether you knock them down or not. So why waste your elite on it?

PvE is all about pressure and AoE. Again, knockdown (ES) isn't really pressure since the AI mobs are stupid when they stand up and stupid when they lie down. Triple Chop seems a bit better, until you realize that it's on a 10 second recharge and then remember that WE and even Eviscerate is better for axes. Actually Evis can be really good in some areas, depending on the average health of enemies. Too high or too low and it's a waste. Hundred Blades, on the other hand, allows you to do ridiculous amounts of damage just by standing in an enemy group - no need to hold aggro, all you need to do is be in their general vicinity. Also, it's extremely friendly for buffing (Barbs, Mark of Pain, Splinter Weapon, Strength of Honor).

tl;dr 100 blades pwns

N E D M · Aug 25, 2009, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Dwarven Battle Stance.
that is all i have to add to this discussion.

Hugh Manatee · Aug 25, 2009, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Erfshaker is there so you can hit with whirling attack, then crude swing(with SoH, judges insite and other similar buffs this does upwards of 100 damage to the helpless foes per swing), then erfshaker, then repeat the chain if they're still alive, all the while they never get a shot off... In addition to pinning enemies in place for nukes, MoP, splinter weapon ect. With the AoE attacks SY charges fast too making the party invincible. None of the alternative classes or skills you mentioned can pin a whole mob in place for several seconds with 0 movement, 0 ability to act, and do the damage that a hammer can do. Snared mobs still shoot at you, earth eles can kinda AoE snare/kd, but with long downtimes and conditions(like they have to attack or be running fast), fire eles have meteors but you still need a puller to group them and hold them or they'll move and elites to make the cast time/downtime manageable, so why not let the warrior do it with his elite. MMs are for chaff, the mob might attack the minions, they might not, or they could pulverize them in 1 shot then come for you, also minions are phisical hitters, why not make mobs helpless while the minions beat on them, triggering MoP, Barbs ect. Erfshaker immobilizes a large number of foes for 3 seconds, lets you pummel them for hundreds of damage, and lets a player with armor and HP take the initial focus of aggro while squishies move in at range(which is just common sense). Combined with a HB warrior scattering is prevented and the mob should die in the first erfshaker salvo.

Godmode D-slash is for making heroes invincible(hero paragons can't take it), I've never noticed mobs leaving my squishies alone for me when they have SY! on them, I think it's a myth myself, they just take minuscule damage with that up. I'd rather have SY! on a warrior then have it on nothing.

qvtkc · Aug 25, 2009, 11:11 AM // 11:11

That's nice Hugh, point is that

* It doesn't matter much if mobs can act - they do stupid things anyway, so I prefer killing them fast. There are builds that allow me to pump out more damage than an ES build, so ES is inferior.

* A minion master, when used correctly, pretty much ensures zero movement and zero activity from the mobs (apart from stupidly trying to beat up the minions).

* Earth or water eles are fully capable of rendering the AI melee nearly useless to the point that they can be saved for last, a great help in hard mode - grouped casters hardly ever move, single or scattered ones are harder though, but ES won't help much with that.

draxynnic · Aug 25, 2009, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Blinding Surge can also effectively shut down melee. I think you may be overestimating the minion master, though - and sometimes you either can't build a good swarm (although AotL helps there) or you don't want to rely on it (enemies with Verata skills).

Regarding Earthshaker: As Hugh said, it's typically used as part of a damage build as well. While they're knocked down, you can Crude Swing at lower risk, then follow up with Whirlwind for more damage. Earthshaker keeps them shut down in the meantime, which means some other member of the party can concentrate more on killing things in turn.

Regarding Dragon Slash - SY spam is a commonly-referenced advantage, but it's really only part of the package. DS will also fuel Brawling Headbutt (for knocklocking someone), Whirlwind Attack (for AoE damage) and, well, pretty much any adrenal skill that's compatible with using a sword. In many of these cases, the DS warrior is probably inferior to other builds that do those things - Imbagons are better at SY spamming and 100B is better at dishing out area damage - but the DS warrior could be packing all three simultaneously and do whichever is appropriate to the situation... or just keep DSlashing.